8 replies to this topic

[hypermice]

Hello everyone! MadCrayolaz and I have a bit of a disagreement on bee flowers. As it is in the bee template, bee pages have a "Pollinates with" area on the sidebar. For bees like Cultivated, "Flowers" makes sense. Everyone knows what that means, and it is the same as is listed in the apiarist database in-game. The problem is with others, like the Tropical Bee. According to the apiarist database or beealyzer in-game, Tropical bees need "Jungle" flowers. 

 

I think this is what should be listed on the bee pages, with the link in the "Pollinates with" to the list of flower definitions. (Which is how it currently is.) On that page, there is a table that has "Jungle" defined as "Vanilla Vine or Fern". I think this is more useful for people who are new, because it will direct them to the flower page with much more information about the subject than is feasible to put on each bee page, such as the explanation for mushrooms- "Vanilla brown Mushroom or red Mushroom. Toadstool will not work, nor will giant mushrooms." In addition, if anything about a requirement is updated later (such as redstone blocks being allowed for the redstone requirement) there is only one place to change, rather than each bee page that uses that to pollinate.

 

MadCrayolaz thinks we should put "Vine or Fern" on the actual bee page. From MadCrayolaz talk page: "The world Jungle literally makes no sense in this case. In know it says it in the Database/Beealyzer, but there is no such thing as a jungle flower." "To a new person, Jungle would make no sense. Writing out exactly which flowers are usable would be the best course of action, I believe. That would mean you list both ferns and vines as the flowers."

 

As this type of situation occurs on many bee pages, I thought we might discuss it. (Ender bees pollinating with "End" vs. "Dragon Egg", Excited bees pollinating with "Redstone" vs. "Redstone Torch", Stark bees pollinating with "Magic Flowers" vs "Shimmerleaf or Cinderpeal", etc.)

 

(Sorry if I misrepresented your thoughts MadCrayolaz, feel free to correct me!)

[MadCrayolaz]

I think overall, actually, the section should be removed from the infobar.  It is already a bit clunky, and all the information that isn't common to items is handled elsewhere on the page.  It seems that the infobar overall could be renovated to make a bit more sense.  For example, http://ftbwiki.org/Corrosive_Bee, if you look at the sidebar, it lists the flower it pollinates with (Jungle).  Now if you expand the genetics table, it ALSO states it there.  The table in the end makes a more suitable place to keep this information, since that is how it is displayed in the beealyzer/database.  The issue still persists there though.  If the link to the definitions was preserved, it'd be, at least in my own opinion, the optimal place for it.  However, I think most people who are new to this wouldn't even think to click on the link, as it isn't too apparent that that is what it links to.  That should somehow be cleared up.

[hypermice]

I just confirmed that if you wiki search "Jungle flower" the flower page explaining it comes up. It is not first on the list, but I think there might be a way to add tags on that page so terms like that bring it up? Anyways, I REALLY don't want to change the genetics table. I like how it looks like the apiarist database, and I am strongly opposed to that being changed. 

 

As far as the sidebar, I don't think it really looks clunky. It did with all the descendants  breeding pair, and chance listed, but it has been slimmed down. I think any less and it will look unfinished. I was under the impression that there should be nothing in the sidebar that is not in the article, it is just a compact form of it. I could agree with taking out the "pollinates with" as well as the "effect" because both of those traits can be changed. Produce, specialty, required temp and required humidity cannot. I think it might be nice to have "Branch" listed on there as well.

[MadCrayolaz]

I wasn't saying we change the genetics table.  I am saying we remove the flower parameter from the Bee template.

 

The infobox, however, could be further slimmed down.  It should just be a modifed item template, with only a few pertinent parameters changed.  If the infobox isn't changed, it makes the genetics table redundant, and should, under Wiki standards, be removed.

[RZR0]

I think I have to agree with hypermice. People should be able to figure out they can find more information on the flowers page. As for removing the parameter from the template. I agree it has to be a modified item template, but that doesn't mean we should limit the displayed information.

[Artsja]

If the infobox isn't changed, it makes the genetics table redundant, and should, under Wiki standards, be removed.

I don't think I quite understand how the infobox makes the genetics table redundant, and what Wiki standards you're referring to. The genetics table is useful because it presents all the information given by the Beealyzer in one table. It has eight parameters which aren't covered in the infobox (lifespan, speed, pollination, fertility, area, nocturnal, flyer, cave).

Also, like hypermice said, having repeating information in an infobox is not an issue because the infobox is a quick summary of information (similar to how Wikipedia's actor infobox will repeat information from the article in a more concise manner) that allows for a basic overview.

 

Whether the info template looks cluttered or not, I think that's highly subjective. The Item template has 5 parameters (with possibility for more), the bee template has 8. I don't think it's cluttered, and I think we slimmed it down enough to contain the most essential information.

 

In regards to the original question, I think we should stay true to the game and keep it "Jungle". What exactly "Jungle" entails is explained twice: in the article itself under "Requirements" and on the Flower page. Listing the actual required items would indeed clutter the infobox if we keep the flower parameter. Maybe it would be beneficial to change "Pollinates with" to "Flowers".

 

Whether to keep the flower parameter at all, I'm not sure. I do like having it there. You could argue that Humidity and Temperature can also be changed through increasing tolerance, and you can breed away certain effects, but I think without them the template would be too barren. I also like the idea of including the bee branch. It seems pretty essential to me.

[hypermice]

I actually think it would be nice to change "Required temperature" to "Preferred temperature" as that seems more accurate. Common bees do not require Normal temperature, they do prefer it, but the tolerances can be changed so they can be in a Hellish environment. (Same goes for humidity.) As far as saying "Pollinates with" vs "Flowers", I could go either way.

 

We had a mini-discussion in another thread about things in the infobox being unchangeable things. I am ambivalent as to if we should keep the flower and effect info in there, but if we get rid of one, we should get rid of both. On one hand, they can be changed through breeding. On the other, most people know that and are looking for the default. I don't know how to add to the template, but I think "Branch" should be there. That does not change, and is useful. =)

 

I did change temp and humidity to be words rather than numbers on the template. The only benefit of the numbers as I see it is to give the ranges, which can be altered, so I don't think they should be in the infobox. "Cold" means so much more to me than a set of numbers that I would have to look up.

[Kahless61]

Sorry I'm late to the discussion; I almost never read the forums. If you do keep it in the template, I think it should be a "Flowers: [[Flowers#Jungle|Jungle]]" type of thing. So basically it still says "Jungle", but it's a link to the page explaining exactly what Jungle means. That way the user doesn't have to be smart enough to think "Gee, I'll look it up on the Flowers page", they just need to be smart enough to click a link.

[felinoel]

Yeah I agree that all that basic descriptive info should be on the infobox.