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Request: Bee-Specific Template

template organization

40 replies to this topic

#1
Ora_the_Owlish

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Hello everyone! I'm rather new to FTBwiki specifically and wiki-editing in general, but I couldn't help noticing some confusion about bee species. As of now, the bee pages are using a few different forms of a general item template. According to the Bee Species page, there are almost 180 different bees--that's a lot of possible deviations! Since there are currently so few bee pages, I would like to request that we nip this in the proverbial bud by coming up with a standard bee template. Unfortunately, I'm not nearly experienced enough to do so myself, and I am not quite sure how to account for selective bee-breeding in a template. For instance, Ender bees have a trait that causes them to damage approaching players, but said trait can eventually be bred out. So while an |[[effect]]=Ends (damages players) entry in a template would be useful, it could cause confusion, which would only be compounded when covering bees that are only available through breeding. The long and short of it is:

 

1. A dedicated bee template would be useful

2. I cannot make one myself

3. I have no idea what it would look like.

 

Sorry to drop such an incomplete idea in your laps, forum, but hopefully you can come up with a solution. Have a nice day :)

 



#2
digitallyApocalyptic

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Providing that it's OK for the hypothetical bee template to be the same formatting-wise as Template:Item, then I could probably change some parameters there and make it work for bee-specific things. What parameters would be necessary for such a template? The ones that come to mind for me are (in this order and displayed as such on the template):

 

Name

Title

Image (optional parameter if File:Grid_{{PAGENAME}}.png doesn't exist)

Caption (for the addition of Latin/scientific names for bees)

Product (upon rollover, displays that production times given are averages and will not always reflect true times; assumes natural traits)

Specialty Product (see above parentheses)

Preferred Humidity/Temperature

Pollinates With

Effect

Possible Descendants (different name, perhaps? the idea is that this would be a field that would list all of the possible mutations of the bee, with use of the <br> formatting; for example, the page for the Forest bee would list Common as a possible descendant, perhaps with the natural mutation chance if available as info)

Data Values

Source Breeding Pair (chance to acquire in parentheses)

Source Hive (optional parameter if Source Breeding Pair is empty)

Source Mod

 

Are there any modifications that need to be made to this or parameters that need to be added? I'm also thinking that perhaps it would be good to have multiple parameters for Possible Descendants so as to avoid the need for <br>, but this would complicate the formatting a bit.


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#3
Artsja

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That seems to be a good setup to me. The other traits can be covered in a 'Traits' table akin to what there is on the Forest Bee page.

 

It's a minor detail, but the caption parameter could be used for the latin names.

 

Should the production time for each product be included? I personally am not a big fan of it since I think it's sort of misleading, but it can be useful if you want a rough estimate.



#4
RZR0

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We still need the item template on the page with this though, right?



#5
digitallyApocalyptic

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Had another idea in addition to these: images of the bee's products displayed underneath the bee itself to give a quick reference to what the bee produces. Thoughts on this? It seems like a good idea to me, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

That seems to be a good setup to me. The other traits can be covered in a 'Traits' table akin to what there is on the Forest Bee page.

 

It's a minor detail, but the caption parameter could be used for the latin names.

 

Should the production time for each product be included? I personally am not a big fan of it since I think it's sort of misleading, but it can be useful if you want a rough estimate.

 

The method of displaying traits would be pretty difficult to do, as to my knowledge, it's going to be very difficult to get information on a bee's natural traits, outside of the bees such as Forest and Rocky that are created during world generation, unless the bee has special traits (e.g. the Relic bee, which has Longest Lifespan) created via mutation.

 

I like the idea of the use of the caption parameter as a way of displaying the Latin/scientific names of the bee. That was a parameter that only came to mind after making my additional post.

 

I feel like production times should be added, but perhaps it's possible to use a function similar to how Template:Entity on Minecraft Wiki works, where a rollover of the mouse will say something like: "Rough estimates of production times are given. This average assumes default traits and is an average production speed only."

 

 

We still need the item template on the page with this though, right?

 

Providing that an item ID parameter can be added for the template (something I also forgot to add in my original reply), it's probably not necessary to have Template:Item on the page, especially as this might make the page look disorganized and cluttered with two headings, etc.


My username is digitallyApocalyptic. I contribute where I can on the wiki and I've previously built pretty much the entirety of Category:Twilight Forest. I play FTB Ultimate, some games on Steam, and I follow MS Paint Adventures.


#6
timrem

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The method of displaying traits would be pretty difficult to do, as to my knowledge, it's going to be very difficult to get information on a bee's natural traits, outside of the bees such as Forest and Rocky that are created during world generation, unless the bee has special traits (e.g. the Relic bee, which has Longest Lifespan) created via mutation.

 

Not at all. You just have to look in the Master Apiarist's Databank.



#7
digitallyApocalyptic

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Ah, I didn't realize that such an item existed. That will most likely be very helpful in documenting bee pages.

 

I'm going to start working on changing the parameters and adding things to Template:Item so that it works for bees. The product of these efforts will be found at Template:Bee on the wiki once it's finished.

 

Edit: Template:Bee appears to be working. I'm not sure how exactly to add images of the products that the bees produce below the bees as I'm not all that fantastic with wikitext, but that's not vital. The vital parts appear to be functional. I also can't quite wrap my head around how Minecraft Wiki creates the rollover text, so I'm not going to tangle with that at this point in time either.

 

deaaaaugh i'm so horrible at everything >_<


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My username is digitallyApocalyptic. I contribute where I can on the wiki and I've previously built pretty much the entirety of Category:Twilight Forest. I play FTB Ultimate, some games on Steam, and I follow MS Paint Adventures.


#8
Artsja

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you did a great job with the bee template :) Thanks digitallyApocalyptic.

 

I added it to the Forest Bee page to see how it works out in practice. As you can see there's a few small problems occurring:

The data values don't fit in one page. My suggestion would be to actually remove them altogether since all bees share the same data value anyway.

The second problem is of the same nature. There is not enough room for the "Cultivated Bee" text under "Possible Descendants". I'm not sure what to do about that.

I would also suggest moving the "possible descendants" all the way down to after the source mod because as you can see the section can become quite large for certain bees.

 

I changed "Preferred Environment Humidity/Temperature" to "Required Humidity/Temperature".

 

As for images for products, it should be simple enough you have different parameters for each product (i.e. product, product2, product3). :) You could probably look up the code from any other template if you're not sure on how to add images. I'm sure there's a more elegant way to go about it, but for now, that's what I've changed.

 

The text rollover shouldn't be too much trouble either. I'm just wondering where to add the production time. Maybe something similar to what I have done on Grid:Centrifuge with the chance could work here as well.



#9
digitallyApocalyptic

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Removed data values parameter. Moved Possible Descendants parameter to after Source Mod parameter. Testing to see how well the chances for breeding pairs work out. Images should now link to their respective pages. Also testing to see if what you did with Template:Grid/Centrifuge can work in a similar way with this template by copying the span style and having it depend on a new parameter named pair-chance. However, as previously stated, I can't get my head around the way that wikitext works as I'm really only good at changing parameter values at this point, so I'm just going to leave it alone for now before I break something.


My username is digitallyApocalyptic. I contribute where I can on the wiki and I've previously built pretty much the entirety of Category:Twilight Forest. I play FTB Ultimate, some games on Steam, and I follow MS Paint Adventures.


#10
Ora_the_Owlish

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It's looking lovely thus far, can't wait to see it in action!  :D



#11
Shini

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I just signed up to say that you did a very nice job on the bee template ;) and all it needs now is information which i hope i can spare some time to help with it



#12
felinoel

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Not at all. You just have to look in the Master Apiarist's Databank.

I was planning on using that to put all of those additional traits and such on the Bee Nav template once I figured out a way to expand it horizontally so all the info would fit... that way one could sort all the bees by any trait.

But... it is looking more and more like I may have to make several different bee nav templates for individual sorting...
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#13
Embri

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Can I suggest we limit the sidebar template to all the things that cannot be altered through breeding?  The Genetics section is fine for holding all the traits of a pure strain, but the main sidebar is probably best left to those things which are bound to each species.

 

That would include Climate (Humidity/Temperature), Product(s), appearance (the actual spite colors) and Descendants (which might be better named Further Mutations to match what they're called in-game?).  While the production times can be misleading, they are still useful in comparing species, as to which is more productive.  Currently working on pages for more of the traits, which can be linked into the template to help people learn about how they work.  

 

The Requirements section seems somewhat redundant, as every bee can have its tolerances altered through breeding/genetics machines, the type of flower is only going to hold true for a pure strain, and the climate is listed on the sidebar already.  



#14
Ora_the_Owlish

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Alas, humidity and temperature requirements can be changed through breeding (or at least it seemed as such last I checked) and can DEFINITELY be changed with the Extra Bees acclimatizer. As far as I know, the only traits that cannot change are appearance, products, descendants, and forebearers. I definitely see where you're coming from, though. Perhaps, at the risk of engorging the bee articles any further, there should be a small text disclaimer about most traits changing with breeding? I still feel like we need to mention a bee's effect (if any), though, even while acknowledging that they can be bred out. For instance, a Brainy Bee sounds fairly benign, but their hives occasionally spawn Angry Zombies. A beginner would probably want to know that straightaways (maybe in the intro, if not the sidebar). And because the only way to change a bee's genes (excepting the EB machines) is to breed them, a player after a certain bee species will be forced to deal with the bees' "vanilla" properties at least once--so your Brainy Bees are definitely going to have some time for zombie spawning shenanigans. 

 

I guess what I'm trying to say in so many words is that I agree with you, there is very little about a bee that doesn't change, and the article needs to have something to it besides the sidebar, so perhaps the sidebar could be:

 

Image

Grid image

Latin name

Product

Source Mod

Bred From/Source Hive (to account for bred/wild bees)

Possible Descendants/Mutations/however the phrase should go

 

Any important notes (Ender Bees will deal heavy damage to a player unequipped with Apiarist's Armor) could go in the intro. For the contents of the article, the Forest Bee page could perhaps serve as a starting point for what further pages should contain (on a related topic, should "Mutations" be considered spoiler material?). The Requirements section could always end with a short statement about traits being changed via breeding or ExtraBees machines. In fact, it could even link to a page describing the process of manipulating a bee's genetic code, if someone wants to write one. That's just one idea, though. Can't wait to see how it all turns out :)



#15
felinoel

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Can I suggest we limit the sidebar template to all the things that cannot be altered through breeding?  The Genetics section is fine for holding all the traits of a pure strain, but the main sidebar is probably best left to those things which are bound to each species.

 

That would include Climate (Humidity/Temperature), Product(s), appearance (the actual spite colors) and Descendants (which might be better named Further Mutations to match what they're called in-game?).  While the production times can be misleading, they are still useful in comparing species, as to which is more productive.  Currently working on pages for more of the traits, which can be linked into the template to help people learn about how they work.  

 

The Requirements section seems somewhat redundant, as every bee can have its tolerances altered through breeding/genetics machines, the type of flower is only going to hold true for a pure strain, and the climate is listed on the sidebar already.  

I thought Climate (Humidity/Temperature) and Product(s) were changeable through breeding?

 

I KNOW Products is, I've had bees produce something that regular bees of their name would not normally.

 

 

Any
important notes (Ender Bees will deal heavy damage to a player
unequipped with Apiarist's Armor) could go in the intro. For the
contents of the article, the Forest Bee page could perhaps serve as a
starting point for what further pages should contain (on a related
topic, should "Mutations" be considered spoiler material?). The
Requirements section could always end with a short statement about
traits being changed via breeding or ExtraBees machines. In fact, it
could even link to a page describing the process of manipulating a bee's
genetic code, if someone wants to write one. That's just one idea,
though. Can't wait to see how it all turns out :)

And then there are bees that can only be produced in the Nether


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#16
Embri

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Are you using hybrid bees felinoel?  They will produce the products of both parent species, and if unidentified, it will seem like you are getting something unusual from a species.  Pure strains only yield their listed produce as far as I can tell, and I've spent (way too many) hours playing with bees.  38,000 bees bred and counting...  I have not gotten into Thaumic Bees yet, so that is a possibility but I sort of doubt it would alter the fundamental structure of Forestry's bee system.  

 

Preferred Humidity and Temperature cannot be altered through breeding, but /tolerances/ can.  A cultivated bee is always going to want Normal/Normal, but you can get it to work in Damp/Cold by giving it  Down 1 / Humidity Tolerance and Down 1 Temperature Tolerance. 

 

 

Special biome requirements are extremely important, many players (Including me!) were initially frustrated by trying to cross species that were listed to work but never getting a mutation.  I think they deserve a place on the template, as they are constant for a given species that needs it.  (Sinister Bees always need to initially be created in the Nether, for example, no matter what.)  The main article should mention that the biome is only necessary for the actual mutation, not any further generations.  I have a lovely Bee Condo of Alvearies holding perfected Demonic Bees just across the water from my base in some Wasteland, and they're happy as can be.  

 

@ Mutations / spoilers.  I'm sort of divided on this - while in the past I've been slapping spoiler tags left right and centre on a lot of the bee pages that give, for example, a full listing of all the bee species because many people may not want their experience spoiled (or should at least be given the option of how much gets spoiled at once), the names alone of possible further mutations doesn't seem too spoiler-y, especially if you're already investigating a page on a specific species.  It is a bit redundant with the listing further down in the article, perhaps we could simply show the total number of possible mutations?  The Apiarist's Database gives you that much and more.  

 

A mouse-over to reveal option might also work, not sure how hard that'd be to code though.

Also not sure how crowded it would make things, but possibly linking all the Further Mutations via image could work?  It would be less spoiler-y than the article section which actually gives the two species you need to make the mutation.  



#17
Ora_the_Owlish

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Argh, sorry about the tolerance/requirements thing, and I didn't even think about biome-specific breeding! Do you by any chance know how common a requirement that is? If it's only for a few species, perhaps it could be in the introduction, instead of the sidebar. Honestly, I've only skimmed the surface of ExtraBees, so I'm thrilled to see more knowledgeable people stepping forward. Speaking of which, I've no clue how hard it would be to use grid-style images for all the Future Mutations, but the width of the sidebar makes it look like you could fit a few on a line--a 3x3 block of grid images looks nicer than a nine-line text list IMO, but I suppose it WOULD be kind of redundant with a dedicated breeding section in every article. As for spoilers, I'd imagine one spoiler tag preceding a Genetics section in the article proper, which would include Genetic Traits and Mutations subheadings, so it'd just be a minor alteration to the current Forest Bee page. If I have time tonight, I might cobble something together on one of the as-of-now unmade bee pages. 



#18
Embri

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You might want to grab a copy of Forest Bee page and stick it in the Sandbox (do we have personal sandboxes on this wiki? I'm not sure.  You can use your own user page though.)  to work on it, and not clutter up the main space with a ton of edits.  

 

It's not just Biomes that an Extra Requirement tag would be needed for, there are also species that can only be created during specific times of the year, I think some that need a certain time of day (Shadowed Bee - night)?  Odds are we will see more of these in the future, already there's a significant enough number to dedicate a place to it on the template.  It would only show up if there was data entered in any case, so it won't clutter pages that don't need it, much like current item template.  Tags only show if you assign them data.  

 

For biome specific off the top of my head, the Sinister branch (Sinister, Fiendish, Demonic)  Malicious Branch (Possibly not? Haven't explored it fully) Austre Branch (two species), Heroic (Forest) and Rural (Plains).

 

There may be more, I'm only about half way through getting all the bee species available.  

 

The current Forest Bee page is a bit of of mess.  It opens with how to get the bee rather than what it actually is, and the flower information is incomplete  (Flowers trait will also accept the XBL flower types).  ... I'll be right back, gonna take a crack at this. :P



#19
felinoel

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Are you
using hybrid bees
felinoel?

Yes I am talking about hybrid bees.
 

Preferred
Humidity and Temperature cannot be altered through breeding, but
/tolerances/ can.  A cultivated bee is always going to want
Normal/Normal, but you can get it to work in Damp/Cold by giving it 
Down 1 / Humidity Tolerance and Down 1 Temperature Tolerance.

Ah.
 

Argh,
sorry about the tolerance/requirements thing, and I didn't even think
about biome-specific breeding! Do you by any chance know how common a
requirement that is? If it's only for a few species, perhaps it could be
in the introduction, instead of the sidebar. Honestly, I've only
skimmed the surface of ExtraBees, so I'm thrilled to see more
knowledgeable people stepping forward. Speaking of which, I've no clue
how hard it would be to use grid-style images for all the Future
Mutations, but the width of the sidebar makes it look like you could fit
a few on a line--a 3x3 block of grid images looks nicer than a
nine-line text list IMO, but I suppose it WOULD be kind of redundant
with a dedicated breeding section in every article. As for spoilers, I'd
imagine one spoiler tag preceding a Genetics section in the article
proper, which would include Genetic Traits and Mutations subheadings, so
it'd just be a minor alteration to the current Forest Bee page. If I
have time tonight, I might cobble something together on one of the
as-of-now unmade bee pages.

It is just a few but it is a major annoyance.
It would probably be better to just list the nine straight down, probably...
 

You might want to grab a copy of Forest Bee page and stick it in the Sandbox (do we have personal sandboxes on this wiki? I'm not sure.  You can use your own user page though.)  to work on it, and not clutter up the main space with a ton of edits.

Yes, we have the ability for userspace articles which can be used as a personal sandbox.
 

It's not just Biomes that an Extra Requirement tag would be needed for, there are also species that can only be created during specific times of the year, I think some that need a certain time of day (Shadowed Bee - night)?  Odds are we will see more of these in the future, already there's a significant enough number to dedicate a place to it on the template.  It would only show up if there was data entered in any case, so it won't clutter pages that don't need it, much like current item template.  Tags only show if you assign them data.

Ha true! I never thought to include the Holiday bees as special breeding, in my current nav template I just have them with an asterisk, but yeah, the Holiday bees should be included with the specific biome bees, good catch.
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#20
Embri

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Then that's why you got a bee product that doesn't usually come from the type of bee that the Queen looks like. Produce not a trait you can separate from the species, but you can temporarily make a strain that gets more than one type (at half efficiency?) by using Hybrids.  Unfortunately hybrids are inherently unstable and don't breed true, which makes them less than useful for automated production.





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